Q&A: Who Was Venereable Fulton Sheen

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome to the Soul Food Priest podcast of Fr. Ben. It's always a joy to have you. And I'm here with Kira. And Kira, am I right that you know our guests? I kind of know this guy here just a little bit. This is my husband, Derek. And yeah, we've been married 20 years. Wow. Yes. That's right, because you guys got married the year I was ordained. Yeah, we were. And so... Your ordination was our first ordination. And yeah. Oh, was it really? Yeah. Okay.

[00:00:29] We had never experienced an ordination. That's right. Wow. And we had only been married, what, how many months? Yeah. And I actually had hair at my ordination I think. Yeah, you did. A little bit. Yeah. My hair was way darker too. Yeah. Uh huh. Gosh. So, Derek, thank you for joining us. You're welcome. It's great to have you. I'm glad to be here on set. Yeah. Like I get to watch it on the YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, what a joy. It's really incredible.

[00:00:59] For those of you who do not know, Derek has, he's done so much work in so many different fields and teaching and catechesis and things. But really has done a lot of writing and a whole lot of teaching. A lot. Mm-hmm. Because I think, I mean, I knew you guys long before I was ordained. Mm-hmm. And, because I think I met Kira first. Yeah. We were on a trip. And you guys were. Like a new trip. Yes. And you guys were. Were you dating at that time?

[00:01:28] Uh, I don't think we were dating at that time actually. Yeah. No. Maybe shortly after. You were Deacon Ben. Yeah. We had heard of you first when we, when we first started dating. Yeah. Yeah. But you had already known each other for a while. Yeah. And I think, and I mean, everybody was like, oh my gosh, please don't ordain that guy. Deacon Ben, please. And I was like, dude, they must need praise. Okay. One of the first things I remembered about you was that you were really quiet. Really? Like I don't, I don't really remember you being like as outgoing as I know you now. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:56] And I was like, was I just so absorbed with other things that I didn't even notice that? But I do remember the one night you took out like the bongo drums and you led us in prayer. And it like was amazing to me. And I was like, who is this guy? And then, and then you gave, then you gave a talk at a parish on theology of the body. And I was like, I have to know him. And so, yeah. Yeah. And then the rest is history. That is pretty cool. Yeah. It is really cool. Wow. I can, it's actually helpful for me to know that I can be quiet. That's good to know.

[00:02:26] I don't. Miracles happen. Yes. I might have been so absorbed in other people and other things and you know. Yeah. I was probably, yeah. I didn't notice. I was probably talking to some of the other priests. Yeah. Yeah. That, well, it's, what a joy to have you, Derek. Did, so you, this is your book on Archbishop Fulton Sheen. That is, yes. It was published last year. Right, right, right before the, right before the Pope passed away. Okay. Dang. You know, right after Easter.

[00:02:56] So it was published Holy Week of last year, which was a real blessing because first of all, it was the 100th anniversary or the 100th year since Fulton Sheen wrote his first book. And then secondly, it was during Holy Week, which had so much impact or Sheen was so devoted to Holy Week. So that was a great blessing. Yeah. Wow. So how long did it take to do this?

[00:03:23] I researched and wrote for five years from the inception of the idea to the finished product. Incredible. That's right here. Yeah, five years. Five years. Yeah, and she put up with me the whole time. You know. Wow, so in some ways both of you did this, right? Yeah. Absolutely. She got the dedication. That's awesome. Yeah. I was not expecting the dedication on this one. Incredible. At all. So this, that's really amazing.

[00:03:52] I mean, in some ways really providential to be sure. I mean, for those again who don't know, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, born in Peoria, right? And then I guess he was the Bishop of Peoria. Well, he was born in a little town outside of Peoria. They moved, the family moved to Peoria when he was like five. Okay. Specifically for the access to a Catholic school. Oh, okay.

[00:04:18] He was ordained in Peoria and then he was later an auxiliary bishop in New York. New York. And then the Bishop of Rochester, New York. That's right. And then he retired from that and was a titular archbishop and traveled the world giving priest retreats. So, but he is now buried in Peoria, which is, you know, the diocese that initiated his cause for canonization. So that's, was a big thing a few years back. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[00:04:47] He moved from St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York to Peoria. And it's a really, it's a really blessed pilgrimage to go up to Peoria to pray at his tomb, to see the place where he was ordained. And then you can even visit the place where like, for example, he celebrated his first Christmas mass there. Oh, wow. And he's now a redone shrine to Fra Angelico. Oh, wow. And this is, so this is another connection for us.

[00:05:15] Our anniversary, our wedding date happened on the feast of Fra Angelico. Oh, no way. It was a shrine of Fiesta. Oh, wow. So we have a particular devotion to, to, to Fra Angelico too. Wow. Yeah. So yeah. So we walked in there and we were like, oh, there's Fra Angelicos everywhere. And because we did, we went to, we went to Peoria while he was writing this book. Wow. Oh, you did. You, you took a pilgrimage up there. Yeah. Okay. That's awesome.

[00:05:41] We took the family up there and created his tomb and dedicated the, you know, just saw his intercession while we were up there. And yeah. Cause I think if I'm not mistaken, that Bishop Jinkie was the bishop there at the time that kind of initiated the cause. Right. Right. And then, uh, I think Pope Benedict got kind of gave it his blessing and then Pope Francis as well. They, they approved, he approved the miracle. Yeah.

[00:06:08] The, the, the miracle for beatification was approved in 2019. And then of course there was a hold for, from 2020 to, uh, 2026 now. Right. So about a six year hold. Yeah. Um, and, and now it's resumed, which is a great because in September Fulton Sheen will be blessed. Incredible. Not, not venerable Fulton Sheen. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. It's amazing.

[00:06:34] Um, Derek, do you mind walking through a little bit on, for people that don't know kind of the stages of canonization? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, um, when a cause for canonization is, is opened or allowed to open from the congregation for the causes for saints, a person can be named, uh, servant of God. Right. So if you've heard that term and then the next step is venerable, which means that the, the

[00:07:03] congregation, the investigation has found that this person lived a life of heroic virtue. Okay. And then after that, there is the stage of, of beatification or blessed, which means that there is one, uh, supernatural miracle, um, attributed to this, this person's intercession in heaven. So, uh, that's where Fulton Sheen is right now, or has been, um, is, is, is venerable Fulton

[00:07:31] Sheen and as of September will be blessed. Um, but that miracle happened in 2019. Okay. And then after that, there's another miracle required, a supernatural miracle required for a person to be moved from blessed to saint. Okay. Blessed John Paul, the great saint. Right. Yeah. That's really good to know. And because I've heard, and maybe you can help me with this, that is, is it true?

[00:07:57] Like I've heard that they, you need basically one miracle for the beatification, another miracle for the canonization, but they have to be totally independent. Yes. Yeah. And, and this is something I found in the research, even just, just recently within a, uh, within the last few days is that the, the, the miracle for moving from blessed to saint has to come after the beatification.

[00:08:24] It can't be a second before it has to be since the beatification. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. That's why it's such a long process. Yeah. And, and the good news is I, again, I was doing some research for, for this conversation particularly. So right now there are five, uh, proposed miracles for Fulton Sheen to be moved from blessed to, uh, to saint Fulton Sheen that have all happened since 2019.

[00:08:50] So of course there will be an investigation and the church will do the due diligence, but there's five of them that are, are out there right now or had been brought to the, to the cause. That's amazing. Did, um, wow. Did, when you were doing the, the, the research for this, cause I would imagine kind of putting myself in your shoes. I know my brain is a racquetball, so it's constantly going all the time. Theology food, theology foods. Yeah.

[00:09:18] But like, I would imagine like putting this together, uh, it would have been real easy to go off in different directions. Yeah. Cause there's so much, I mean, what a life. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank God he has an editor. Oh yeah. That's right. Yeah. Like he's the type of person who said we knew each other in college and we took our senior year, we were taking history classes together. And so they were like, okay, you're going to write a 10 page paper.

[00:09:46] Well, I would be at like, just make it to 10 pages. Like, Oh my goodness. Like, and then I would see him and I was like, so how'd your paper go? And I'm like kind of stressing about it. He's like, I got like 15, 20 pages. And I'm like, what? Like, how did you get 15 or 20 pages? And what is this? And we weren't dating then, but it was like, And he probably did it like half an hour before class. I mean, he did, I did the all minor.

[00:10:15] He had been working on it probably for two or three weeks. Sure. Since the beginning of semesters that we got the, they got the assignment. A stack of books at the beginning of the semester. Yeah. Yeah. And he's ready to plow through it, but yeah. So, so yeah. So it's a good thing he has an editor because he can, there's so much. Kind of trim down. And he loves to put it all out there. And yeah. It's good. If, if I might, the, so the book is titled Prophet of Hope and it's, it, the subtitle is Fulton Sheen responds to the modern world. Yeah.

[00:10:45] Um, so I'm an American historian by first education and, uh, what I was doing, I was teaching a class at a Catholic high school, um, a U S history class. And as we got to the post world war two era, I said, I really want to give them just the best stuff from the Catholic world at that point, especially in the United States. And Fulton Sheen is the obvious choice there.

[00:11:13] So I just started digging into Fulton Sheen's available stuff. And then I started pairing up, you know, American cultural figures with Fulton Sheen. So to, to your point, I could have done Fulton Sheen and Karl Marx. I could have done Fulton Sheen and Freud, but where this project started was very specifically American culture. Um, and then you can't do, I mean, I went to the editor and I said, I could do a book

[00:11:43] on each of these figures in conversation with Fulton Sheen. And they said, nobody's going to read nine books. Right. And I said, nobody's going to read nine books. Um, so let's make it into one. And, you know, and then to, to Kira's point, um, my editor who was so good, so good. Um, I think she cut 80 pages out of the, what we, you know, the final manuscript that I, that I presented to him.

[00:12:09] So yeah, it just, um, I was able to do a lot of honing myself, but then that's where the editorial work comes in. Um, so what you've got is a, a, a, a contrast between major cultural figures in the United States in the 20th century and Fulton Sheen's thought in a conversation back and forth. Right. Which I think is so brilliant.

[00:12:34] I mean, I think that's so brilliant, Derek, because what it, not only does it, it does it present the, the thought of, of Sheen himself, especially as it pertains to modern culture, but a lot of these writers, a lot of these thinkers and their perspective and their, their zeitgeist that would, that they were going from. Right. Right. And, uh, which even as you know, a lot of people have heard of some of these people, but don't

[00:13:02] really know that they, they, like if somebody were going to say, what do they believe? What do they argue? They don't really know. Right. So it's, I mean, I think that's really, really awesome because, cause you're kind of, when you're reading it, you're kind of seen from a, from like a bird's eye view, right? A little bit like a fly in the room, so to speak. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Yeah. And then going on different, you know, so each person also represents some aspect of American culture. Right.

[00:13:29] Whether it's, you know, whether it's feminism or education or, um, like with Jack Kerouac and, you know, maybe literature and all that. So, yeah. No, that's, again, just drawing from my, my education and my background was what are the major areas of any culture, right? Mm-hmm . You've got philosophy, you've got gender relations. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You have education, you have artistic expression.

[00:13:57] Um, you have, uh, even, even, um, now I'm drawing science. Yeah. Right. So, uh, one of the most fascinating and maddening chapters to write was the chapter on BF Skinner, right? The founder of modern behavior, modern behaviorism. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was researching BF Skinner while we were traveling down to the beach one day. And it was like, listen to these studies that he would do on people and on children. And I'm like, this is disturbing. Yeah.

[00:14:26] Can you do your research silently? Or just let's move on to music or something. Cause we got a long drive. Yeah. Cause I think Derek, I mean, we've, uh, I've, I've always thought you and I think very, very similar on things. Like, I think we have similar interests and that's exactly what I would be doing too. And so it's like, it's why none of the priests want to travel with me.

[00:14:50] They're like, I had the biography of BF Skinner, like the beach, you know, in the, in the beach chair. And it's like, here I am reading the, you know, the big thing and you know, and they're like, it was fascinating. I mean, I was like, he did what? And it was fascinating to hear this perspective and everything. At the same time, it was like, okay, I don't think the kids are going to, I think they're all passed out in the car. You know, they were like, oh, that's probably why they were passed out in the car. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:20] So. That's funny. But I mean, yeah. So he, he, with five kids, he kind of took research however he could. That's right. Well, and, and like, like to that point, it does kind of beg the question, Derek, what was there, was there, what was kind of the modus operandi with, whereby you chose the interlocutors with him? Again, I had a very specific period of time I was dealing with. Yeah.

[00:15:49] And then I, I looked at, you know, the, the major areas of culture and. Cause Fulton Sheen lived at what time? Fulton Sheen was born in 1895. Of course he was ordained in 1919 and then he died in 1979. So he's, he lives most of the 20th century, all of the communist era to the, the election of Reagan almost right. The election of John Paul II. Um, so you've got, yeah. I, I had a lot to pull from.

[00:16:19] Um, but then again, looking at the, the various areas of culture and, and what I knew of who are the, who are the most influential figures in American culture during this period. And I, I did have to will down some, right. But some were obvious like John Dewey, the first chapter. Um, you know, and I say John Dewey had this unbelievable, uh, impact on the American education system that you, anybody I'm talking to probably doesn't even know.

[00:16:48] And they all to a, to a person said, Oh, I know Dewey. He's the decimal system. No different Dewey. Um, but all of us who I, you know, I'm a product of public schools. Um, certainly looking back through the lens of studying Dewey, that's, that's what I got. Right. But even doing a lot of work in, in Catholic education, I've noticed like there's a lot of that that has infiltrated Catholic education just in a way of trying to keep up with whatever

[00:17:18] the secular schools are doing. You know, and it's really, um, ultimately what it does is, um, divorces or, or pulls apart the, the human person, right? The unity of intellect and will. And, and, um, it pulls that apart. Whereas the Catholic vision would be an integrated. Yeah. Integrated. Yeah. Um, so Dewey was an obvious choice and then somebody like, uh, Margaret Mead and somebody

[00:17:45] like BF Skinner, I did have to do some work on. And I have a, a good friend who's a really, um, uh, deep scientist. And he said, he said, this is the guy you want. And I started doing the research and yep, that was the guy. Perfect. Um, Jack Kerouac. Yeah. Literature, right. Right. The writer of the 20th century who in my personal opinion is just an awful writer, but he had an impact on culture for particular reasons.

[00:18:14] Um, and then finally all the way down to somebody like a man named Michael Harrington, who many people probably haven't heard of, but he's the founder of the democratic socialists of America. And now as we're in 2026 and we've got this whole thing with the news on how much democratic socialism is sweeping the nation, especially on the left side of the political aisle. Like we need to know where the roots of this are.

[00:18:39] And, um, yeah, it just, again, it was a really, I loved doing this project. I love research. I love ideas. And, and so it just, yeah, I would wake up early. I would stay up late. I would, you know, I would be like, kids, you got to go do something else. Yeah. And Kira would sometimes lovingly, sometimes sternly tell me it's time to put it away. Yeah. We gotta, we gotta, we gotta. So it was in some ways really a joint project.

[00:19:09] I mean, because. It was just me just. Yeah. At times being like, okay. Cause I mean, I knowing him and I mean, well, any of us when we're working in our giftedness. Yeah. We can. You get in the zone. You get in the zone. You get excited. You get energized. You just start eating it up and you just can't get enough, but it's just like, and it's so fascinating and everything. I mean, we would go to bed with Fulton Sheen playing on the TV. Like while he was researching this. I mean like, I mean, Fulton Sheen is preaching and I'm like falling asleep.

[00:19:38] I mean, cause he was watching cause YouTube clips. Yeah. There's so much of his preaching is on YouTube now. So, I mean, he was just even doing that and I was just like, Oh my God. And a lot of that early research was during COVID too. Oh yeah. It's like, I'm able to, I'm just able to do YouTube like, and just stack it up. You got nothing but time at that point. Right. That's amazing. So yeah. But there were times where I was like, I had to be kind of, this is, we got to stop. Like you got to stop. I need to come back over here. Like really back in, you know?

[00:20:08] Yeah. Well, she's good at that. She is. And I need it. I need it. Yeah. My wife does that to me too, Derek. Just so you know. Yeah. Indeed. Yeah. And I'm, and I'm just like them where it's like, yeah, sometimes I can be charitable and sometimes it's like, mmm. Now a little more, uh, I think we were talking, Kira and I were talking about, uh, when George Weigel was on the podcast, uh, I, uh, we asked George about this cause he is, he's talked

[00:20:36] about the process of, of writing books before. And he said, he said that writing a book is like, I'm going to, I don't want to misquote him. I think he said it's like trying to, uh, like, like bring together toddlers that want to run in different directions. Mm-hmm. And he's like, no, we're not going to do it. No, we're not going to do it. No. No. Right. And he's like, so you have to give yourself mental guardrails.

[00:21:01] Uh, this past Saturday I spent six hours, uh, writing and I just sat down to do some, some corrections on some things I'm putting together. And it was like, I mean, and I was like, oh my gosh. Okay. I like, who did I forget to meet? Right. Yeah. But like, I can imagine, especially for something like this, because like you've, you've put

[00:21:27] so much passion into it, it's kind of like, like a baby. Right. I mean, you put so much heart into this. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It, uh, it's, it's, you know, the gestation period. Yeah. It running through my mind. And then the, the really, for me, the, the most difficult thing is to get it from in here to like actually out there. Materialize. There's a manuscript that I could even work with to edit. Yeah.

[00:21:56] That's the hardest part for me because I, I do the thing. I, I, you know, I could go this direction and I could craft it this way or I could craft it this way. And then I have three different versions and, you know, and that's where the, a good editor comes in. But then, you know, you, I mean, I was, I was elated. The, the, my, you know, author copies showed up and, you know, just elated. Like this is, this, it's like giving birth.

[00:22:21] Like all of that was worth it to, to see that my efforts have, and have, have showed up and hopefully will bear fruit to the world. Right. That's what I ultimately want is this message of, of hope that Fulton Sheen pervade through his writing, through his, you know, his television show, through his newspaper column to, to be gifted to the modern world, right? In the 21st century because we, we need it so much.

[00:22:51] Well, and that's exactly, that's so well said because it's kind of like what we were talking about before, right? I mean, I think this is, in my opinion, not just coincidence that, that your book is coming out the exact same time, roughly, that the beatification is taking place and the same time that Leo is elected. Yeah. And the emphasis that he has been placing on evangelization and such. I mean, I think it's, it's a bit of a perfect storm in a good way.

[00:23:22] Yeah. Yeah. You want to know another cool connection? Hmm. Leo was elected on Fulton Sheen's birthday. Oh, no way. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. I just noticed that as things were, you know, it's like, wait a second, this is, this is an important date. Oh, it's Fulton Sheen's birthday. Okay. That's incredible. In the book, wasn't it like the book was due to come out like on his feast day or something? What was it? I've. It was like, it was kind of weird things were popping up, you know. There was a lot of the, you know, it was delayed several times because I couldn't get enough

[00:23:51] time to write or research or whatever. So it finally came out and like I said, Holy Week, I just, that was, that was really special in my mind just because of how, how special Holy Week was to Fulton Sheen. Mm-hmm. There were probably other, you know, significant little things. Yeah. Because how short, how long after this was published did we find out about his beatification? A year. Yeah.

[00:24:16] So the beatification was, was re, um, re-initiated. Mm-hmm. So it approved in 2019, paused, and then re-initiated in, in March of this year. Okay. And so we just found out in May when it would be and then, you know, tickets and all that good stuff for the mass in St. Louis. So. Cause that's, that's what I was going to ask.

[00:24:40] Am I correct that, um, most of the events that are surrounding the beatification, uh, are going to take place in St. Louis because, um, Peoria is too small. Mm-hmm. So Peoria will have, um, a week of events leading up to the beatification mass. But yes, the mass, they wanted to, to hold it in St. Louis, um, because of the, the facilities. Yeah. Yeah. So they've got the America Dome. Right.

[00:25:08] Um, which holds 70 or 75,000 people. And it's almost totally full for, for the beatification. Gosh, it's amazing. Yeah. The tickets are almost sold out. Are they really? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then they're actually have stuff back in Peoria after that. So whatever they could hold in Peoria. And the, the, again, the, the interesting thing is that the start of that week, I think it's, it may actually be the Sunday of that week is the anniversary of his ordination, his priestly ordination. Oh my gosh. September 20th.

[00:25:37] And then a few days later, the beatification. That's incredible. You know, the Lord's providence, you know, we were all frustrated and like, when's this going to happen? And, um, of course I don't have any, like, I'm not part of any board or anything. Sure. I just am watching. Yeah. Um, but it was always like, when, when's this going to happen? Yeah. When's this going to happen? And then, um, in God's providence and God's timing, you know? Yeah. Well, clearly the Lord put this on your heart as you were saying to materialize it from your heart, your mind to here we are. Um, I'm sure.