Q&A: Prayer

[00:00:01] Hey everybody, welcome to Soul Food Priest podcast with Father Ben. It's a great joy and an honor to have you. I'm here with Kira and we have a very blessed special guest, Jonathan Campbell from Halo App. Welcome brother. Cheers. Good to have you my friend. Yeah, yeah it's great to have you. So this, this is, you've been in Memphis before. I have. Yes. I love Memphis. Yeah. It's a beautiful place. We don't hear that many times. Yeah, I mean it's really,

[00:00:31] Yeah, I know but usually when people come, especially you're from North Dakota. Originally from North Dakota. I live in Austin, Texas. Yeah, okay. I mean people often if they come here from like North Dakota or something, they feel like, dude do I need like a passport to come here? I mean it's like another country. It kind of is, yeah. Yeah. I've never been to North Dakota. Like what's food like over here? It's a great, it's a great state. Very Catholic.

[00:00:57] Very, yeah, very, it's very vast. There's, it's very rural. The eastern part of the state is flat, western part's a little more hilly, but a lot of buffalo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bison. Well this is, this is really awesome. So Jonathan just got married. I know. And so we're, It's still shiny. Two weeks? Three weeks? About three weeks. Three weeks. Okay.

[00:01:24] We go. That's so awesome. And you went to Italy. Correct. Where'd you go in Italy for your honeymoon? We went to Rome first and then we, then we went to Florence and then to Assisi. Uh-huh. And then back to Rome. It was about, about 10 days. Yeah. So it was incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. I'm like Florence was my favorite, but Assisi is still on the bucket list. If I ever go back to Italy, I've got to go to Assisi. Oh. Yeah.

[00:01:54] Which one was your favorite? Oh gosh. Different ways. Each was spectacular, but probably Assisi overall. We were, walked in the footsteps of St. Francis and we're at the Basilica of Francis and Basilica of Claire. And then we, Carlo Acutis, Carlo Acutis, his remains are there. So we visited his, his area as well. Yeah. Um, but yeah.

[00:02:19] And, but even just aside from the more pilgrimage aspect of it, it's a beautiful small town nestled in the hills. The architecture is so, ugh. It's wild. Yeah. That's the best Italian food I've ever had was in Assisi. Yeah. Now they say, one of my buddies who's lived in Italy for 27 years, he said the best Italian food he ever had was in Sicily, not Italy. And so, or, you know, some people, it's the same thing, whatever.

[00:02:45] And, but, um, it's, uh, Assisi, I had this, uh, gnocchi with black truffles and I remember eating it and I remember feeling my soul leave my body, man. Like, I was like, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. I mean, it was like an out of body experience. And they're like, father, father, you with us? You with us? And I was like, don't, don't, don't talk to me. Don't talk to me. Just to give me a moment. But it's, yeah, Assisi's so beautiful. And it's, yeah.

[00:03:15] And you went to Franciscan U. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I've always had a real strong devotion to St. Francis. Did a little discernment with the Capuchins as well. And, um, yeah, just fell in love with him years ago and was able to kind of, uh, you know, really just, uh, kind of incarnate that from all the reading I've done and praying I've done. Just being there is a blessing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you also did the, got, received the blessing from the Pope.

[00:03:42] Not many people know that that can happen, that newlyweds can do that, said the audience. So tell us about that. Yeah. It's called the Sposi Novelli and it's, um, it's newlyweds from all over the world. Mm-hmm. Um, you wear your wedding garb. So, like, we took my wife's wedding dress with us and she got to wear it again, which she was super excited about. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's a special, um, crowd, it's a special seating area for the, for the Pope's Wednesday audience. Mm-hmm.

[00:04:12] And so we got, we were very close for that and, um, surrounded by, I think we, we tried to count a little bit. There was maybe 150 other couples. Oh, wow. Wow. Like straight up different cultures. Yeah. Very different, like styles and fashion. It was so cool. Yeah. Wow. Was it outside? It was outside. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. When we did it, it was in the Pope hall, the sixth hall. Okay. Cause it was February and rainy. Yeah. And cold. And you met Benedict. I did meet Benedict. Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah, we met Benedict.

[00:04:42] So I was going to say, how does Pope, Pope Leo do it? So you go into a special section, does he come over to you or? Yeah. So we were, um, we were prepped that we might be able to meet him and have a, have a brief discussion with him. Um, so we were, you know, kind of hoping for that. We didn't get that. Basically, you know, he rides around the whole audience in his vehicle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which you can, we got pretty close to him. Then he, he goes up and delivers his message and, you know, several different languages.

[00:05:12] And then at the end, he meets with dignitaries and such. And then at the very end, he comes over to us and gives us a special, uh, papal blessing. So again, incredible. That is so amazing. Yeah. Cause people, we didn't know what was going to happen because they said, John Paul, the second would have the couples come up to him individually and he would bless them. Yep. Yep.

[00:05:32] And then Benedict, when they said it, they said, if you get there early enough and you sit along, you have your dress on and you sit along the aisle, he will walk over to you and shake your hand. Mm-hmm. You have to be on the aisle. Mm-hmm. So great. So he did that.

[00:06:01] And then, uh, Francis, I think I saw another couple and with, with Francis and he, um, I think he kind of walked around to them a little bit. So I was like, Oh, what is, what is Leo style? Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's, but it's really beautiful that they extend the blessing. Did you know you can go on the Vatican website and see the message? Have you pulled it up? Not yet. No. So you can go on the Vatican website and you can pull up the message of that audience and then you can see the blessing that he gave you too.

[00:06:31] Beautiful. Yeah. Which, I mean, he's American so you can understand him. Yeah, we could, yeah, we understood him, but. Very articulate. Yeah. Yeah, he is. He's, um, he's just got such a, a calm, like joyful, like peaceful presence too. And so, I mean, yeah, it was just amazing to be within like 50 feet of him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Incredible. And you, it sounds like you had some good, uh, carbonara when you're there. Carbonara was, uh, yeah, life changing. Yeah.

[00:07:00] It was wild. What, what is Jenna like? She, she, she turned me on to carbonara. Oh, she did. Yeah. She, um, uh, I'm, I'm a bigger fan of the pizza than she is. Yeah. But, uh, she's just pasta extraordinaire. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We had some good, some good food, some good wine. Um, and it was, uh, yeah, we're, it's almost as good as Olive Garden. Not quite. Yeah. Just a little things in life. Just a call below, right? Yeah. Just a little things in life. Yeah. That's so awesome.

[00:07:30] Well, I mean, we are blessed to, thank you for taking the time to come because, I mean, truly I know how very busy you must be. And, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Jonathan, but I think that Hallow is the most popular Catholic app. It is. And, um, does, um, what have you, cause I know you travel, you speak, and, and, um, in addition to your theological studies you did years ago, but when you travel around and

[00:07:57] you talk to people from different places, um, is there, is there a common thing that you see that they're looking for in their faith? Um, like, uh, or something that they're struggling with that you kind of comes up a lot? Yeah. I think, uh, people are just really starving for peace, inner peace, right? The peace that the world cannot give. And so, um, uh, you see that a lot.

[00:08:25] There, there's a lot of, um, a lot of brokenness in our culture that robs us of that peace. And so being able to sit down for even just 10 minutes in the morning or whatever it is and just listen to the Lord, you know, and just be with the Lord without trying to do too much, right? Is, uh, really important. And that's what, um, people are really loving. One of the things they're loving about praying with Hallow. So, yeah.

[00:08:52] We're doing, uh, searching for and maintaining peace by Father Jacques Philippe, a women's, the women's group here at St. Michael's. And, um, and it was one of those things where they, I figured, okay, May, this would be a great time to maybe dig into this book. And on Hallow, it was on, it's an audio book. So we're actually getting together and then playing the audio book to just together because it's like, it's, it's a crazy time. So don't feel like you have to prep and read it.

[00:09:20] We're just gonna, and it's teeny tiny little chapters. It's a little treasure. And, uh, sister Miriam James reads it and it's just, it is so beautiful, but it has opened up so many beautiful discussions for, for all of us in the, in that, that finding that maintaining peace. Where does it come from? Um, and, uh, just kind of the main theme is just, just be gentler on yourself.

[00:09:50] Yeah. Yeah. Be kind to yourself. And that's, sometimes you hear that, you know, especially maybe as a guy and you're like, oh, I don't, I need to push myself. Right. And both things are true. Right. Yeah. It's not either or. It's not either or. But, uh, yeah, we need to be kind to ourselves, you know, being in ministry, I heard a long time ago. Um, and it's something that I've taken to heart is that our self-talk can sometimes be very negative.

[00:10:15] And like, if you step outside of yourself for a second and say, I wouldn't ever talk to my closest friend like this. I might not even talk to my worst enemy like this. Why do I talk to myself like that? Right. So I think a lot of times, uh, with our content, it really kind of helps people to step back and really see ourselves as God sees us. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And what a great point. I think, especially from the masculine standpoint, I mean, I think that, uh, that we tend to see

[00:10:44] it in polarizing perspective. It's either this or that push, push, push, um, sacrifice and, and be out front. Or, uh, there is kind of this, the, the, an inner sense of compassion. It's not either or. Right. Mm-hmm. And the, I mean, I'm laughing. The problem with it is that's not reality. That's not reality. It's both and. Right.

[00:11:10] And I think, uh, I know, uh, over the past decade, in my opinion, in the United States, we've seen, not, and it's all, it's good. It's not negative. But there's, there, especially for men, I think we've seen this really, uh, hyper-masculine push in the sense of, um, of, of, of, of sacrifice and, uh, don't be a spiritual wimp and all good stuff.

[00:11:37] But the problem there is there, they often don't give the other perspective and, um, and the understanding of that we need community. Mm-hmm. We need times of, like, contemplative prayer. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:07] Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so we have to kind of train, men have to kind of train themselves to some extent for that. Yeah. Yeah. And some of our, our conversations as women, and I mean, I know men probably struggle with this too, but in our culture too, is this sense of, and we sometimes don't even realize we're doing it, is it's either perfection or failure. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. For sure. And it's either. And we're often failure. Yeah. Because we're hard on ourselves. Because we're hard on ourselves.

[00:12:36] So it's like, we've got this idea, whether it's because of social media or whatever, that everything just has this perfect picture. And, and we even lock God into that and sanctity into that, like sainthood into that. Yeah. And be like, the saints are like perfection here. And I, that, like, I've got to do that. And then, so we're like, oh, you know, cause I was even talking about how like Easter time, like receive these beautiful graces. And then like the next day, like I'm frustrated and losing, you know?

[00:13:06] And I'm like, how quickly we fall. And immediately the self-talk is, well, I just, I just failed. And so it's just like, you go to rock bottom. And, and I was just like, we've got to stop putting ourselves like in these two camps and like realize like God is, because I think in the book too, which was so helpful as, you know, he's talking about like, God isn't, he's not surprised by your weaknesses.

[00:13:34] Like stop thinking that you're just going to figure this out overnight. Like you're, you're going to be weak and you're going to fail and God will purify you and he'll be in his time. And it's just be patient with yourself. And I'm like, oh, but it's so hard to break from that mentality that I'm either one or the other. And, and be like, yes, I am weak. I am a sinner.

[00:14:00] I'm striving for perfection, but not in the perfection of perfectionistic way of the culture, but perfection according to, to God, you know? And that's so hard to, I think that's where we struggle a lot of times in trying to, to be holy. Now, indeed. I mean, from my perspective, I think a lot of times people do, we're talking about prayer.

[00:14:23] I think sometimes people trying to find that fuzzy middle ground where, okay, I'm, I'm trying to be patient with myself. On the other hand, I don't want to fall into the sin of presumption. Yeah. So there's a healthy sense of pushing ourself, but then I want to be patient with that. So where is, where's that kind of middle ground a little bit? And admittedly, it's a little fuzzy, right? Because we've all kind of been, most of us have been at some point on one of the polar

[00:14:50] ends and then throw in a little scrupulosity for good measure. Right. I mean, and so we're, we're usually floating. Do you, Jonathan, do you have like in, cause you, you've obviously worked a lot with people with different perspectives on prayer. Um, if you were going to talk to, uh, especially young couples as, as a couple that have been married a few weeks, um, would like, I'm an expert on marriage. Yeah. Clearly.

[00:15:19] Three weeks. We sit at the feet of the master, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're going to talk to the young Padawans on this, right. What, uh, any, any thoughts there on like, cause I'm sure you and your wife had been praying long before your wedding too. Yeah. So we, uh, I, I think the most important thing is, um, to just make a commitment and dedicate yourself, right?

[00:15:46] Because, uh, there's, you know, the, the spiritual dryness is very much a real thing. Um, obviously the, the struggles and whatnot that you're going to face in your marriage. So making a commitment and sticking to it, I think is the most important thing. Like a routine. A routine. Yeah. Right. Like a routine. So like, um, you know, maybe praying first thing in the morning, um, before you go out for the day. Um, we, uh, we try to pray at night as well. We'll pray our rosary together.

[00:16:13] Um, and this is kind of a, um, kind of a, uh, uh, uh, uh, specific example, I guess. But what we do is we found that when we pray our rosary and we lift up specific intentions for each decade, that just brings us together. Right. And it brings us closer to our loved ones and the people that we're praying for. So, um, yeah, just commitment, dedication, routine, and then make it, um, you know, prayer is personal as well.

[00:16:40] Make it personal and then bring other people into the fold too. Cause it's not just about, you know, um, you know, it's, it's not just about the here and now right in front of me, but it's about the body of Christ and what are we doing to bring other people closer to him through our prayers. Right. Yeah. So by personal, you mean like you bring in special intentions and you gotcha. Yeah. Gotcha. I remember, um, my husband and I were, we were leading a retreat, a marriage retreat.

[00:17:09] And at one point in time, he said, I asked for my wife's intercession, like how, like her prayer petitions, what she wants me to pray for so that that way I can also see what's in her heart and what is she might be struggling with that I might not be talking about things that I might be worried about people. I might be worried about situations. I might be worried about that. I'm not usually, I'm just not talking about, but I'm just kind of, cause we're just going through daily life.

[00:17:39] But that was kind of his indicator to, to kind of know how can I best pray for her and what is she going through? And that would give him insight. So I think it's beautiful that y'all do that. Um, and now we don't, we did that and now we're in a different, I'm like, we need to revisit that because, you know, I mean, but that's like a magnifying glass into your, the other person's heart, you know, it's like a flashlight into their heart. And so not only does that give your prayer more fruit potentially, but it also allows

[00:18:07] you to just be a better spouse and serve that person that much more because you're, you're, you're hearing more, right. On what's going on inside of them. Right, right. We've kind of talked on a previous podcast about like the spiritual intimacy and the emotional intimacy and the physical intimacy and like the kind of like one would see with Tobiah and Sarah, right. And the book of Tobit. And like, to your point, Jonathan, I think that really is, it's a magnifying glass into

[00:18:35] things we wouldn't normally see, including with our children when we're praying with our kids. Right. And, um, I, I, I can't remember the, maybe it was just 10 years ago. My buddy, um, they would pray rosary, I think once a week with their, with their little ones. Right. Right. And his son, who's all of second grade at the time was praying for some war going on in Afghanistan or something. Yeah. And he was like, what?

[00:19:01] Like, apparently he walked through the room and saw this on the news and he was worried about the war in Afghanistan, second grader. And he's like, buddy, you know, and, and like talking to him. Like, so I just say to echo your point, like things he never would have known. Right. And, and I mean, I wouldn't know as a parent how to handle that. Yeah. Yeah. I, there have been times where I've like our youngest, we've had, you know, people pass

[00:19:28] away in the family that he wasn't really close with, or he might not have even known, but he picked up on something and he's still praying for their souls. And I'm like, wow. Okay. That's really, really beautiful. We underestimate, we underestimate our, our, our young ones. Yeah. Yeah. We definitely, definitely do. Cause you know, as sometimes, you know, bringing up family and how do you pray like with, with

[00:19:57] little kids and stuff. I mean, we'll sometimes we'll do our, our family rosary, you know, we'll try for once a week. It may or may not happen when we travel, it definitely does. And then each kid tries to see how quickly they can do the first decade. So they can take a nap actually. Sure. Is what I noticed. Yeah. Because by the time we get to the fourth decade, I'm like, trick it's everybody's asleep. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. But the Lord was praised somehow. Right. Yeah.

[00:20:27] The Lord accompanies us in our sleep. Yeah. Yes. So I'm going to go with that. Yeah. Indeed. We'll go with that one. Reminds me of my dad. I used to pray the rosary with my parents and my dad, God rest his soul. He would take one breath and get through three quarters of the rosary. He's like, hail Mary for all the grace of the Lord. And I'm like, dad, come on. I can't breathe. Yeah. I look over at my mom. She's like, whatever. It's still loving over.

[00:20:57] Yeah. Yeah. That's what, that's kind of what it is. So we have, you know, a lot of different ways to pray on the app and the rosary is a big part of that. And we have different guides on the rosary and people always laugh. If you want to say a quick one, go with Mark Wahlberg because he kind of does the same thing. Oh, does he really? And it's like. That's funny. It's like 14 minutes for a whole thing. Yeah. But then you can do Sister Miriam who's like 26 minutes. Yeah. And it's just beautifully well thought out and just prayer.

[00:21:24] That's one of the cool things about prayer is everyone, you know, you got your own styles and so many different ways to pray. Well, and I know people are, they, they will ask this or text if we don't ask, but like, how did, how did this happen with Halo? I mean, like for people that from like myself, cause I, I've heard about it for years and I should know more than I do, but like, how did this come to be? You know, it's 2018. It officially started.

[00:21:54] It was three guys from the University of Notre Dame and, and it kind of started, I believe as their, you know, their project. And they really wanted to, they had Alex Jones, our CEO had, had discovered contemplative prayer for the first time in his life, completely changed him. And so he wanted to set something up that could be an aid to him and others as well. So, but I think it was around 2020, 21 where it really started to pick up steam, you know, like post COVID, post COVID.

[00:22:24] Right. Yeah. And then, yeah, we just got, you know, I mean it, a lot of the, the prayers and the content speaks for itself. Right. But also when you get people who are promoting this on a large scale, people who have an audience of their own, who, who were probably a much different audience than, you know, a lot of the traditional Catholic apostolates had had before, it just, it just snowballed and it's been, it's been beautiful.

[00:22:54] We, one of the, one of the most amazing things professionally that, that I've been involved in is we hit number one on the app store. Incredible. Like this year and 2024. Last year was number two, but during lent. So we came back with a vengeance this year, but yeah, it was like, like this year, it was just so amazing. We're just watching it, you know, we'll watch it climb during Holy week from 58 to 40 to 30 to okay. Now we're in the top 10.

[00:23:23] And then we, we stalled at number two, like all day Ash Wednesday. Oh yeah. But then we passed chat GPT, like at the end. It was wild. It's insane. But no, I mean, it's, it's so amazing. And, and, you know, I've been in ministry for, for a chunk of time now over, over, you know, well over a decade. And like, if you'd have told me 10 years ago that that would happen, I'd be like, you're crazy, but God does wild things. Incredible. Yeah. Well, it's really something to be proud of.

[00:23:49] I mean, and, and I know we give credit to the Holy Spirit, but we do our part, right? We do our part and God uses clearly the gifts that, that you guys, your team has and the team has. And it's really, it's fascinating. I would say as a parish priest going to the, the context, as you guys know, it's, it's different when we're always shifting gears. Okay. Here we're doing counseling. Here we're doing hospital visits. Here we're doing confessions, whatever it is.

[00:24:18] And so one kind of shifts gears. I always say from the parish priest perspective, and I spent time discerning with the Capuchins myself and I was in New York, I think what maybe the perspective of a parish priest is we always say we have to kind of be liquid. You pour yourself into whatever the situation requires, you know, which kind of is reminiscent of Paul saying, yeah, I've become all things to all people, right? You kind of adapt, right?

[00:24:47] But one of the things that I've like to our discussion that I found very interesting is like I'm at people's homes at least three or four times a week and we're having dinner with them. And Hallow has come up quite a bit, right? And, and anybody that knows me that like, like Kira and Sylvia, they know I'm clueless when it comes to technology, right?

[00:25:13] And he knows, he has his music and his YouTube cooking channels. And we know that's about it. But I'm really good at those things now. Right. And so like, and. Vulnerability, here it is. Yeah. Full on. Yep. Truth brings freedom. And so like, I, it's really funny. So I don't know, this was a month ago, I was at someone's home and this, their daughter, who's probably 14, was talking to me about how much she loves Hallow. Sure.

[00:25:41] And I was like, yes, totally. And she's like, father, you probably have listened. I was like, yeah, I've had this. What are the top 10 things you like on Hallow? You're like, well, there's a, I got a, sorry, I got a call coming in. He's got a thousand day street going on over here. And so I was like, I mean, I'm driving, I'm like, Lord, I'm so sorry, man. I was lying through my teeth.

[00:26:05] But the, but it, point being, it is really, really cool to see the impact on different demographics too. And I'm right. You guys have Spanish too. Yeah. I feel like, correct me if I'm wrong. I think 10 languages or more. That's a lot. 11 or 12. That's amazing. French, Portuguese, Spanish, Polish. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's, it's really incredible. We have an international team. Yeah.

[00:26:33] It's incredible just to, to see the, the, the growth and then, but then also the growth on our team. I mean, we've got some phenomenal leaders. One of the things that our, our upper management talks about is, is we don't want to just build the best religious team or the best Catholic team. Like we want to build the best team that happens to be religious and Catholic. Right. So, and I think we've, that's part of the reason to your point, father, I think for the success is just getting the right people together at the right time.

[00:27:03] So. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really incredible too, because it's not only just, because a lot of people, when you talk about prayer, you know, it's like, well, what does prayer look like? And, and, and, and I know too, for me, my prayer can go through seasons as well. And so I love all the different varieties and styles of prayer that are there, even from music.

[00:27:27] Like, you know, so they've got music on there or an audio book or, you know, rosary, the various, you know, divine mercy chaplet, all the different kind of traditional styles of prayer mixed with all the, a lot of other things. So like, even, even at our house too, um, yeah, hallow is used every single night in my house at bedtime with my two younger sons. So cool.

[00:27:52] They want to do the trivia at night, the word of the day, because there's like a wordle on there now, but it's for, but it's for Catholic or spiritual things. And then, um, and then the saint story. And so, but then while I'm doing the trivia and the wordle, I'm also playing music in the background in hopes that they go to sleep during the wordle while I'm trying to figure out the word, while I'm trying to figure out the word.

[00:28:19] You know, so, I mean, it's even that, like, they just know, like it's, so it's just, it's multifaceted. It's kind of the routine you were talking about before. Yeah. It's just so many, so many different things that, that are provided, you know, even just the Bible is located on there, the daily reading. So. And there's mental health content too, which I have to give a shout out to, uh, some beautiful, like healing prayers and, uh, um, you know, stress and anxiety prayers and meditations that you can work through.

[00:28:47] Uh, those have been very, very popular as well for, for obvious reasons. Um, but yeah, well, I wanted to touch base on the kids content too. You've listened to the saints alive. I would imagine. There are these dramatized saint stories that are narrated just beautifully. And it, it, it's, uh, saints alive for, for any, any, um, parents of young children watching, uh, saints alive is just so cool. So well done. Keir was telling me about that a couple of years ago. I think you, cause you've had that for some time. A few years now.

[00:29:16] I mean, it's so great because it's like, I mean, how many people like, uh, people really, really enjoyed learning about the lives of the saints. Yeah. Had a massive impact on me. Sure. And, um, so it's, it's, it's, it's great because I think people forget, okay, these were real people. Yeah. And I think that from what I can tell, it really has brought that to life. Right. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's been great. Yeah. My kids even have it. They have, they will listen to some of the same ones over and over again and have them

[00:29:46] memorized. So I'm like, well shoot. That's probably better than what I memorized as a child. It's like comedy movies and rap lyrics. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, you're on the right track. Whatever it takes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Awesome. Yeah. And now there are times where I'm like, oh, I don't want to listen to the little drummer boy again. How many times do we have to listen to the same story or same top of the second part two? And I'm like, I've got to memorize now. Yeah.

[00:30:14] But it's like, Lord, if this is my cross to bear. Yeah. There's worse. There's worse. There are a lot worse. Well, and it's really cool. Like you were talking about different forms of prayer. I mean, like, so Kira's husband wrote a book on art. That's right. Yeah. And, and, and finding God in art. Yeah. Yeah. Really beautiful. Yeah. So he did one, which was a life of conversion in which it's more talking about his own conversion story, but then the conversion stories of people throughout scripture. So more of Alexio Divina.

[00:30:43] So the reflection of sacred scripture, but then applied it to, he did a whole series of articles for an online agency and it was on art and how you can do a type of Visio Divina. Oh yeah. And, and so they were interested in turning that one into a book. And it's, so it's a beautiful, beautiful book in which you, you know, see the artwork, but then you can also pray about it.

[00:31:09] And so there's just, it's, so that's also beautiful to do for, for a lot of people if they're interested in going to museums and seeing all that. Cause it's incredible what's actually here in the United States, what religious artwork is actually here in the United States. And, you know, try to do those Visio Divinas at, you know, beautiful churches or, um, and just reflect on it. Beauty, goodness and truth.

[00:31:35] A lot of, you know, a lot of, um, a lot of evangelization efforts in the modern day are, are, you know, really focused on beauty first because it's such a, we saw that firsthand. I mean, uh, over, you know, in Italy with some of the, some of the just beautiful churches. And it's like half these people here probably, you know, aren't super interested in growing in their Catholic faith, but they're attracted to the beauty and hopefully they do kind of

[00:32:03] take more steps toward that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, I think one of the things that I love about wonder and beauty, like Balthazar and Ratzinger, they talk so much about this is that, and John Paul is for lack of a better term, it's, it's receptivity. It's a Marian model of receptivity and, and in the sense, like, I don't have to do anything. I just have to receive the beauty, the wonder of it.

[00:32:33] Right. And it's what, uh, Ratzinger used to call this, uh, letting be and a monastic model, kind of this, the, what they, they sometimes used to tell us in the seminary at the monasticism of the heart where it's, uh, just a receptivity, which is really hard for a lot of people in our world because like we're talking about, gotta go, gotta go, gotta go, gotta go. I mean, I'm worried this way.

[00:33:01] And so like turning that off into receptive mode and more contemplative, it's, I mean, even Mother Teresa made that point in her, uh, her, uh, directives to the sisters that's silencing the mind is the most difficult part of contemplative prayer. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I mean, it is hard. Which that should make us all feel better. Yeah. I mean, that's a good point. Right. Right.

[00:33:27] I mean, if you're like sitting down for prayer and you're like, I can't shut it down. Mother Teresa struggled with it too. Yeah. Yeah. Saints struggled with that. For when we mess up big time, take a look at Peter and the gospels and be like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great things for God and he messed up real bad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You think I'm doing pretty good. I'm doing all right. One of my favorite scenes there with Peter is, you know, an Easter, uh, is that after the

[00:33:54] resurrection, Jesus is cooking on the, on the shore. Right. And you can imagine the apostles sitting around, nobody saying anything and they can see the holes through his hands as he's making breakfast. Like you say something, you say something, you say something, you say, you know, and that's when he says, do you love me more than these? Do you love me more than these? And then they go for a walk on the shore at the end of John's gospel. And John, the apostle is back here and Jesus is talking to Peter and Peter, by the way,

[00:34:24] you're going to stretch out your hands, me lid where you don't want to go. Follow me. And Peter says, what about him? And he's like, don't worry about him. Follow me. And you know, stay in your lane. I'm talking to him right now. Yeah. Yeah. Follow me, bro. And so, cause that is exactly what I would be doing. I'd be like, what about him? What about him? What about him? Comparison, right? Oh yeah. The thief of joy. Oh yeah. Jesus is probably like, Peter, not right now. Yeah. Just chill. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:53] It's so true. Speaking of like the day to day, just the, you know, we just, we get so busy. Prayer can be so difficult because we can be so, we can busy ourselves with so many different things and trying to find the time for prayer or even is, is the prayer even good? Like, you know, and it just, we sometimes, sometimes we struggle with that of like, I don't even know if I did prayer well enough.

[00:35:20] And so then some people are just like, I don't even know if it worked and just don't even go back to it. So what I wanted to ask is what do your prayer lives look like? Like, what have you learned? Like, you know, we've got a priest, we've got a newlywed, we've got a wife and mom of five. So our prayer styles or routines are going to look different. You've, you've touched upon here. So the life of a priest, like what is, what does your prayer life look like?

[00:35:49] Yeah. And I think Jonathan brings up a, just a wonderful point is, is whatever, whatever works, like follow the routine. For me, as I've shared with you before, when I was, well, really for my whole life, even when I was in grade school, I would just wake up early and I love the morning time. I'm a morning person. And so. Like how, what, what, what morning are we talking here? Like 4am, 7am? I get, I usually get here at 3.30 in the morning every day. And, but I've just done it my whole life.

[00:36:19] So like, it actually works to my advantage because I never get jet lag. When other people go through, I'm like, this is a normal day for me, dude. Like, I don't have any problem with it. And so, but it's, I love the time because I've got about four hours alone every day before everybody, before people start blowing up your phone and it's quiet. And I understand why Jesus would get up and go, like when Peter comes looking, where are you? Everybody's looking for you. I understand why Jesus did that. Why the monks do this, right?

[00:36:49] And that, that's my jam. I mean, that's, that works for me. And because otherwise it would never happen. It's, I think it's the same logic why some people work out in the morning because you just get, especially if you got little ones. Yeah. And so, but some people are night people. So it's, it's not my thing, but some people are night people. And so, but I do think more specifically, I think with my prayer, I can say as a parish

[00:37:17] priest, I have, I have really, really found over the years the value that the church places is on the liturgy of the hours for, for clergy especially, and as a rudder. And so that consistency with a spiritual director. And for me, I do better when I'm walking. Yeah. Okay.

[00:37:45] So like if I, I, I'll, I'll pray the rosary and I, I do laps kind of a runway thing. And I'll walk around the church at six in the morning, walking around, set my coffee cup on a pew, all right. Walk around, right. And, and then, and then, and that, that just, it works for me. And I've been, I think I love that kind of dwelling on like Teresa of Avila and some

[00:38:14] of the, some of the contemplatives too, some things that they've said. Like Fran, I've been recently getting into introduction of the devout life. Yeah. And, and I, I don't read it covered. I'll just chunks, chunks, chunks, chunks, right. Almost like the imitation of Christ. Yeah. Kind of like chunks. And it, it's, it seems like it works. Yeah. For me. But again, I have the luxury, priests have the luxury of not having somebody waking me

[00:38:42] up at 2 a.m. because they had a nightmare or they've got the stomach bug. Right. And so. Or they had a nightmare about the stomach bug. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That happened. Yeah. Sounds like that happens on a fairly regular basis for you. How many times have you had the stomach bug, Kira? Have I had it? Yeah. I don't even know. Yeah. Yeah. And I, if, if it's going to come, I'm going to get it. Mm-hmm. And my husband has like the stomach of steel.

[00:39:12] And so I'm like, you're cleaning that up because if I do, I'm going to be, I'm going to get it. Like, and he's, yeah. Cause he's never gotten sick. Wow. Yeah. He's never had it. Never. Never. He's never. He has. And he's just, he's just being tough. Right. Yeah. Not showing. Yeah. Maybe that's it. Uh-huh. I mean, yeah. Sacrifice, man. Yeah. Cause prayer can come in interesting ways. And I remember there was one time I had Benjamin.

[00:39:36] He was like, maybe almost not too, but I had a nice, I had a hoodie on like getting ready for bedtime and everything. I was holding him. And it just, boom, here. And it went all down. Nice. Yeah. And I was like, oh. Yeah. Yeah. And prayer kicked in. Like, Lord, help me with this. Give me the grace to do this.

[00:40:10] Mm-hmm. Yeah. I usually, I clean bathrooms in between masses. And let's just say, I won't go into details. You can if you want. Yeah. No. I've had moments that, I've had moments that I'm like, mm-hmm. Thank you, Jesus. I need this. Yeah. And so. Pray for that person. Yeah. Yeah. So it is true. Yeah. True that. Yeah. God uses different things to kind of bring us closer.

[00:40:41] Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think for us, we, like for my husband and I, people have asked us, like, how does prayer work for you? And, you know, we went through spells where we just prayed on our own. We didn't really pray together. Right. And we kind of noticed things started, like, falling apart. Like, things just, we were off. And I am not a morning person at all. I'm more of the night owl. Yeah. And my husband is the morning person.

[00:41:09] So somebody has to make the sacrifice. And, and, and recently, and the past, oh my goodness, 15 years or so, it's been me making that sacrifice only because like, that's the only quiet time we're going to get. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Because we have kids ranging from college to kindergarten. And so we've got one wakes up early in the morning and the teenagers are up late at

[00:41:37] night and with everything in between. And so by the time I do get to try to pray at nighttime, I'm like falling asleep too. And, and, but the, the, the younger, I mean, the teenagers definitely are not going to wake up at 530, six o'clock in the morning. Mm-hmm. Um, the six year old might, but he just wants to snuggle. So I can pray with that, you know? You can pray with that. Yeah. So, um, so it does, it has to be there the early morning while the coffee's kicking in

[00:42:07] and kind of our usual go-to is to pray the scriptures together, the daily readings together. Yeah. That's a good, I think that's great. It just kind of, it's, it's the, it's just kind of the small chunks. It's always something, I mean, we've gone through books together that we just love. And then all of a sudden you're done. You're like, oh, now what? And I've seen that that's just a consistent, good thing because. And you're praying with the whole church.

[00:42:32] You're praying with the church and you're, you, you know, the season, you, the saints maybe of the day. It just kind of keeps you, and it's, it's really beautiful too, how it oftentimes matches up with the seasons in life or the different waves or different things. So you can usually find at least one thing in the readings to just kind of latch onto. Now there are some mornings where I'm like, I got nothing. Yeah.

[00:43:02] But at least we're reading it. We're, we're allowing it to, you know, spend that. And we, and we, cause we'll say after we read it, what struck you and kind of do like that Lexi or Davina kind of style together. And maybe something didn't strike us, but maybe we're distracted by something so we can spend the time to just kind of talk about what we might be struggling with, what might be distracting us a bit and just kind of get through that together.

[00:43:28] And so we have that consistent time together in the mornings. And then, and my husband, we were just talking to a couple that we're mentoring right now who are about to be married. And, you know, and he did, he told them, if I do no other prayer in my day besides my prayer with my, with my spouse, that's okay. Oh yeah. But I have to have that one. That's the one prayer I must do is with my spouse.

[00:43:58] And so, so that's beautiful to hear. Now prayer with the kids. What does that look like? Not what you think it will, you know, it can be chaos. They can't all be, you know, beautiful in the, in the church pews and kneeling and at home and all of that. I usually light candles sometimes when we go to prayer rosary. Oh yeah. Just get them focused on something. That's lit. Yeah. But yeah. Did you get that point? Oh yeah. He's the king of dad jokes. I forgot about that.

[00:44:27] She ought to remind me of that the other day. That's right. Yeah. Oh gosh. See, she remembers. Yeah. That's my daughter. She remembered that. But sometimes ours is, you know, it's Ignatian spirituality. You don't know. They don't know they're doing Ignatian spirituality, but we will sit at the dinner table and you do your highs and your lows of the day. Mm-hmm. Or as one Dominican sister would put it, what was your rosebud thorn? You know, the rose in your day. What was something that you loved that was beautiful?

[00:44:56] What was your thorn? Something that you struggled with? And then what's the bud? What is something you're looking forward to or excited about? Yeah. And that's really Ignatian spirituality. And it doesn't look like prayer. Yeah. It looks like a family conversation. Right, conversation. But it was, but my husband was like, I was like, we don't pray as a family. He's like, yeah, we do. Mm-hmm. Like, that's what that dinner table talk is. Mm-hmm. That's actually a prayer. Yeah. So that's kind of what we do. I like what you said earlier about, did I do prayer right?

[00:45:26] Uh-huh. You know what I'm saying? Because I think, or did something strike me that was just, you know, like life altering? And we put that pressure on ourselves sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes I like to say, if you prayed, you did it right. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes showing up is half the battle. Yeah, indeed. There's nothing wrong with that because feelings come and go and wisdom and insight comes and goes. But if you're consistently showing up, you know, like even with the scriptures you talk about,

[00:45:55] like we believe that the scripture is the word of God, right? Yeah. It's the breath of God. So anytime you're spending time with God is time very well spent. Yeah. And even prayer is getting in your car. Oh, yeah. And just being like, Lord, these people are driving me crazy or this thing. You're my boss at work. Right. Yeah. And the Lord be like, I know. I know that guy. I know that guy. Yeah. You're boss. Yeah.

[00:46:19] And, you know, and just being like, I'm frustrated or I'm this or, you know, and help me navigate this. And Lord, what do you want? And why are you silent? That's a song. Those are beautiful. Yeah. Those are beautiful prayers. And those are, I think those are the ones that the Lord really loves to hear because we're being honest. It's raw. It's raw. I mean, it makes me think of so much the promise, the promises that a couple makes. I will love you and I will honor you all the days of my life.

[00:46:48] I think most people understand the love piece to some extent, right? I need to sacrifice. I need to do things I don't always want to do. But if you ask a lot of couples, what does the word honor mean? I mean, you know, I'll say to them, you're going to be making this promise or you did make this promise 30 years ago. Tell me what the word honor means. And I'm not throwing anybody into the bus, but they have a really, really hard time defining that word honor.

[00:47:17] And from my perspective, that's exactly what we're talking about here is to build in time in our relationship and our day to pray together. That's part of honor. Listening and being humble enough to listen, even if I know what they're going to say, when they're going to say it, how they're going to say it, because I've heard it a hundred times. I mean, that requires humility, right?

[00:47:42] And so it's, yeah, deeply, I think that's like to your point here, I think deeply tied to that honor. Wow. What a joy to have you. It's been fun. Yeah. Thank you, man. I love being here. Yeah. You're always welcome at St. Mike's in Memphis. Thank you. Now, just the one last question. Yes, ma'am. Memphis barbecue, Texas barbecue. Don't make me answer that. Yeah. Don't make me answer that. I don't want people to come knocking in the door. You know? Seriously.

[00:48:11] They'll find you next to Jimmy Hoffa, man. I know. Yeah. Yeah. It's, no, it's, I was telling, and I'm very open about this. I was, we were talking about, me and Jonathan were talking about this yesterday, and I told him, I said, look, I'm from Memphis. Yeah. And Memphians would have made, like, the golden calf, the golden pig, if Moses were in Memphis, right? They would have been, you know, and his brother would have melted it down, making him eat it, right?

[00:48:33] So, but like, and I much more prefer, absolutely, Texas OG barbecue and brisket. I mean, I'm much, but granted, I didn't grow up with that. Right. And so, I, I, for me, that is it, man, is the brisket. I like the North Carolina vinegar. Yeah. It's kind of a. I'm like, I know I'm a Memphian, but. Yeah. So we all. Well, you can't be right all the time. Yeah.

[00:49:03] No one's perfect, right? Yeah. It's. No, that is good. That is really good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's all, it's all very good. But if I had to have my loyalty, it would be to Texas barbecue. Yeah. Yeah. It's become a love of mine for sure. No, indeed. We're talking about Franklin's barbecue and Austin and man, that is excellent. Yeah. If you, if you're in, you're down there, if you go in there, ask Aaron Franklin, if he

[00:49:31] needs a chaplain, like a priest to go in there. Say, look, I know this really annoying, short, bald guy that is willing to help. I can wash dishes too. He can make some mean things too. Yes. One hundred percent. Thank you, Jonathan, for joining us. Thank you. Thank you guys. It's a joy. Hey, listen, it's awesome to have you. Don't forget to put soul on your food and give food to your soul. God bless you. Yes. It's awesome. And Father Bruce, I remember that we had, we had. Bruce Neely. Oh, I love him.

[00:49:59] We had taught, we had talked about that very briefly last time I was here and I forgot that. That's a fun mutual connection. I was telling Jonathan the very last thing I did before COVID hit it.