Q&A: How Can We Be Perfect Without Perfectionism?

[00:00:01] Hey everybody, welcome to the Soul Food Priest Podcast with Father Ben. As always it is wonderful to have you. And I'm here with Sylvia and Kira. Hey guys. Hi. Hello, hello. So I know I've asked you guys this. Have you seen the show The Bear? Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay, what, what, what, well let me just say this, those who have not seen The Bear. It's about a guy, it tells a story of a guy named Carmen, Carmy they call him.

[00:00:30] And his, his efforts to start this restaurant called The Bear, right? And, but it's really, really good. I think three seasons if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, what did you guys like about the show? That you recommended it and it was actually good. Yeah. I mean, language kind of rough. Yep. But... It's a kitchen. It's a kitchen. It's a kitchen. Yeah. But I feel like it felt really real. Yeah. Like I didn't feel like it was like, oh, like when you watch Grey's Anatomy it's like, you're never gonna, Yeah.

[00:00:59] And I like do a transplant of like this and it's, doesn't happen in real life. So I felt like it was like, this could really happen. Like this is what happens behind the kitchen. Yeah. That's what I liked. Yeah. Yeah. And they can, they kind of focus on the facial, like the emotions on the faces. Yeah. Yeah. I do like, yeah, I like the, I mean the rawness of the familial relationships. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that struggle. Yeah.

[00:01:27] But then also the, you can tell he is, he sees the inner goodness and the talents of so many people. Yeah. In them, but they just keep messing it up. Yeah. And performing at a lower level. And he's trying to pull it out. And then when it, when it just fails, he just, I love like his meltdowns. Cause it's just, you see him trying so hard. Yeah. And, and they're just, you're just like, Oh my gosh, they just need to stop messing up. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:55] So, but I mean, but the, but, Oh, I can only watch it when my kids are like all out of the house, which is like, never. Because the language is travels. We have a small house. So it just travels. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. But even sometimes I'm like, Oh, I can't even handle it. No, it, it is to your point Sylvia. I mean, that is, that is 100% how they talk. Yeah.

[00:02:20] And, um, I mean, when I was in, in those days, I used that language. I just never raised my voice, which I think intimidated people more. That's scary. Just imagine Father Ben. When you don't have the yelling and you've got just the silent, like that's like crazy level. Yeah. So there, keep it calm. Oh yeah. Watch out. There's a scene. If I think, uh, and if anybody's listening, maybe they can correct me, but I think the,

[00:02:49] um, I think it's the last show in season three and where, um, where we, I think I was telling you guys about it. There's this, this scene where Carmi, who's opened this successful restaurant, he's rocking it, getting all these accolades. It's, I mean, it's just pumping. He has this confrontation with this chef that was just mercilessly brutal to him.

[00:03:17] Like up in his face just every single day. And he fantasized about confronting this guy. Right. And the moment they were at a dinner together and the guy gets up to go to the bathroom and Carmi gets up and he's just shaking because he's fantasized about this moment that he's going to get back at this guy and let him know how, how much he wounded him.

[00:03:44] And so the, the, the dialogue between the two was really, really fascinating. And I have to say, I like got on his full transparency. I watch, I had to watch that episode literally in five minute increments because it was, I worked for, for several chefs like that where it like, I think I told you guys, I was, I

[00:04:11] worked for this one guy who will go unnamed and I overcooked the eggs and he was up in my face yelling at me to such an extent. My nose was inside of his mouth. Like literally it was right here. And the only thing I could think as he's yelling at me is I can see this man's tonsils. And so like when I saw that episode, I was like, I have to, I have to take a minute and then I'd, I'd go, uh, have a cigar.

[00:04:39] I was going to say, come back in, right. Watch another five minutes, go have a cigar, come back in. And, and, and so, uh, um, but like it, I was thinking when I saw this, it brings up to, to me the issue of perfectionism because we're, we're, what is the difference between striving for excellence, attention to detail and perfectionism? Mm-hmm .

[00:05:07] And people say, well, I'm a perfectionist. This carmy chef was a perfectionist. Mm-hmm . If you don't like it, tough. Yeah. Right. But the argument, and I, this would be my argument is attention to detail is a good thing. Mm-hmm . And, and not just in the food world, no matter who we are. Mm-hmm . I mean, if you're doing music for a wedding. Yeah. That's a good thing. You can't just show up and pick a song at random, right? Mm-hmm .

[00:05:34] You, there's a, a healthy sense of, somebody's doing flowers for a wedding. Mm-hmm . Attention for detail is a good thing. Mm-hmm . Um, perfectionism tends to drive people around them crazy to the extent that they're walking on actually, you don't get the best out of people that way. And because everybody's like doing this and you may get them to do what you want them to do. Yeah.

[00:06:01] And I think, I've, I, I have to say, I think it's, it may be a point that's sometimes lost, even in the spiritual life. I mean, what do, what is the difference between striving for holiness? Mm-hmm . Um, very, very different than, um, having, understanding our, that God loves us by dotting the I's and crossing the T's. Mm-hmm . Um, loved. Yeah. Which is really a theology based on fear. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that, and that doesn't end well.

[00:06:31] Yeah. I mean, it's interesting you bring that up because it's, we were just, women's group was just going through searching, uh, searching for and maintaining peace by Father Jacques Philippe. Oh yeah. Yeah. And, and throughout it, at certain points I was like, wow, it was really, I mean, if you haven't read it, it's just, I think I've said it before. It's just, it's tiny, but packs a massive punch of everyday living. Yeah.

[00:07:01] And, and that was one of the things that kept coming up to me was this whole idea of perfection and that we, we get this idea of if I'm not perfect, then I'm, I'm just failure. Mm-hmm . We get this total opposite dichotomy going on in us that if I'm not making it on this level, then I've failed. And we, we do that in professional life and our vocation. But then also in the spiritual life too. Yeah.

[00:07:30] Like I've got, Lord, like I love you and I'm doing this and I'm doing this. I'm praying my rosaries, I'm going to daily mass and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And then we, we fail. And then we're like, oh, I can't get close to you. I can't. Yeah. And we're just go from like these two levels, these two extremes. And, and one of the thoughts that I had was, you know, it's like, well then, okay. You know, Jesus says, be perfect as your Holy Father is heavenly father is perfect. And that thought came to me. And then like a couple of pages later he addressed it.

[00:08:00] And I was like, oh yeah. Yeah. And, and that was when they is, I, we have a false idea of, of God that per being perfect as he is perfect is different than perfectionism to that point. Yeah. That's great. Perfectionism is it. It's really more of the standard standards that I've set for myself and what, how I want to come across and be perceived by other people. Yeah.

[00:08:27] And I need to have that level of perfection, but it's only self seeking. Honestly, if we probably get down to it, I'm just seeking my, my own accolades to where as being perfect as God is perfect. That's at this higher level of love. Yeah. That it has, it's out of, it's self gift. It's self giving. It's, I'm going out of myself.

[00:08:51] So it's calling us to this higher degree of love and this level of perfection that our world just doesn't even know what to do. Like, like, how do you do that? What does that look like? I mean, of course, Christ shows us that, you know, and, and everything, like, that's what it means to be perfect. It's not going to be setting this impossible standard of perfection that we tend to, it's God knows it's going to be impossible for us to attain that, you know?

[00:09:22] And that's not what he's calling us to. So don't be discouraged when you don't hit it. Like, and that was one of the points that he makes in the book is like, don't be discouraged when you fall. Like, seriously, you didn't know that about yourself? Like, you know, like, just constantly calling that to mind, like, and how the great saints that they were like that too. Like, never be, never be surprised by your imperfections. Like, it's, yeah, we're in fallen and it's okay, but. Yeah. So I don't know.

[00:09:48] How would he, how, like with your reading of the book, and I think people, it would be helpful for people to know this because Father Jacques Fleury, incredible. So great spiritual writer. So how would he, how would he, you know, kind of in your paraphrase, like, how would he define perfection then? Like, what would be his reading of that? Like, because I think that's an important point that you bring up. Mm-hmm. The difference between perfection and perfectionism. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:18] Mm-hmm. Like, because if we understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what you're, what you're saying, if I'm hearing it right, is that from the standpoint of the saints. Yeah. And what he's saying, real perfection, spiritual perfection would be found in acceptance of one's imperfection. Yeah. Yeah. Ironically. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and the need for God's grace. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah.

[00:10:49] Yeah. That's, I think, because I was trying to remember, I'm like, oh, it's this one page that's really good. Um, and, uh, and that was, that was kind of what he was, what he was saying was like, to be perfect, you know, you look at the Beatitudes. Yeah. There's weakness. There's, um, you know, like Mary Magdalene, St. Peter. Yeah. A lot of these people, their being perfect actually came in their weaknesses.

[00:11:18] Yeah. Like, because that's when they reached this higher level of perfection, or as perfection as God's, that holiness, that level of holiness, was they confronted those weaknesses, knew all of that. He drove all of that out of them, and then called them to this, to this higher level, where you, you remain, you know, St. Paul says, you know, when I'm weak, then I am strong. So where you remain weak, but that's where your greatest strength is. Mm-hmm .

[00:11:48] And that's the level of perfection that God is calling us to, is that, that giving of ourselves, recognizing, recognizing that, no, I'm not like the end all be all here in the world. He is, and it is only through Him that I'm able to do anything good, you know, which is tough. That's a tough concept. Yeah. I even read that and go, I do good things, you know?

[00:12:18] But it's like, no. I mean, honestly though, every good thing that I'm capable of doing was a gift from Him. Yeah. Because He created me good. Yeah. So it all comes from Him. Yeah. But it's, sometimes we have to struggle with like, giving God all the credit because we still are like, no, that's my talent. Well, He gave you that talent, you know? Right, right. So we have to fully rely on Him to allow those gifts and those talents to reach that level of perfection. Yeah. Like a fine wine or something, you know?

[00:12:47] You've got to give it that time and be patient with yourself and your weaknesses and your talents, but give Him the credit. You've got to surrender it to Him, give Him the credit and let Him do the work in you to reach that level of perfection that He, only He has called only you to reach. Yeah. You know, that you wouldn't know how to do yourself. Yeah. And I think when we do try to do it ourselves, that's perfectionism. Now, well said. Well said. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:13:16] Yeah, no, I think that's great. That's really good. I think that's good. There's a guy named Werner Heisenberg who's a Nobel laureate, and Hitler was trying to draft him into helping with the atom bomb, which he refused to do. He was a Lutheran, Werner Heisenberg. And he was, as you're discussing, he was talking about this understanding that all the gifts we've been given, we've been given from God.

[00:13:45] It's not by myself that I spontaneously, yes, we put effort into it. And the way he says it is he says, if you imagine knowledge as a chalice full, and he said, the first gulp from the chalice of knowledge leads to ego and pride. I really know a lot. Yeah. He said, but after you drain the chalice at the bottom, you realize how much you really don't know.

[00:14:14] In other words, it's humility. That's what Plato said too. That humility is the foundation of all authentic knowledge, really, is having a sense of how much we don't know. And so I couldn't agree with you more. Yeah, there's a real sense. Same here.

[00:14:32] I mean, I think with, and you guys would know this better, I think as raising kids, but I think one of the things that breaks my heart so much, especially with young women and the perfectionism, like with this airbrushed body image. I mean, it's, what is it, 90 to 92% of American women are not happy with their figure. Yeah. Okay, Houston, we have a problem. I think it's a hundred.

[00:14:59] I mean, this is like, this is like, like as a man, I'm like, okay, does anybody else see this as a problem? I mean, like, how do we address this? Like as a dad, how would I address that kind of, that perfectionist hourglass thinking? I wouldn't know, nor do I claim to know as a celibate man. All I'm saying is, we need to be having these discussions. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's, it's so tough nowadays.

[00:15:29] I mean, we, we, we've got teenage boys and teenage girls. Um, and so it's, it's very different how the boys and the girls, women and men think. Um, the girls, because I think we, if I'm correct, are more insecure than, than men are, especially growing up. Yeah. You want to look good. You, cause I, beauty for a woman, it's different than being, you know, great for a guy. So women want to be great, but they want to be beautiful as well.

[00:15:57] So when you look in the mirror, you want to be beautiful for yourself. But I think you also want people to tell you you're beautiful. Indeed. Yeah. You're a teenager. Yeah. When you're an adult. Sure. Why not? Um, but it all starts, you know, when you're a child, kids don't really care. But then they hit this age where it's like, that's very nice. Right. My body, my hair. And it's just, and you look at your children and, and as a mom, your children are going to be beautiful no matter what. Yeah. But then you also like, baby, you've got a great nose. Right. What are you talking about?

[00:16:27] You got, you got a great smile. You got a, what's going on? But your mom saying it. Your mom. Yeah. So it's like, wait a second. Come here. Can you tell her she's great, but mom. So it's like, what do you do? First of all, pay attention to your kids because there are a bunch of kids that are looking in that mirror and not saying a single word and they just come out and they're happy. They're not telling you that they're feeling secure. So make sure, Hey baby, do you, I love your outfit. What'd you think about your outfit?

[00:16:56] Or, Oh my gosh, I love your hair. You know, did you do something different to your hair or with the boys too, man, you're working out. You look great. Right. And then, then you kind of know where your children stand. Yeah. And I think it's, it's, if it kicks off, kicks off in your teens that you're insecure, it's probably going to continue to your young adulthood. But if you grow up as being, you know, I'm not perfect, but I love myself for who I am,

[00:17:25] more than likely you're going to be a more secure person in your adulthood. Yeah. So it is very important to us parents to be aware of where our kids stand. And at least maybe there's not the perfect words we can say, but be aware of what's going on. And maybe even if you have the right words, your teenagers might still not. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know, the best words, but you're there. Yeah. And you're making sure that if they're feeling secure, they don't go into anorexia or bulimia or into hurting themselves.

[00:17:54] There's so many things out there in the world. They're so scary. Be present. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love, love, love on them. Right. It's so hard right now with the shorts and the reels on social media, on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok. Being fake. The filters, the, you know, and, and all these, all these kids really making it on YouTube like, oh, look at this product and I got to do this and we got to do this. And I'm just looking at these girls going, oh my gosh.

[00:18:23] Not like, and I'm looking at my daughter going, you don't need to be watching this. Like you don't need to be filling yourself with this because you're going to have this idea of perfectionism or what you should be. Yeah. Or who you should be or what you should look like. And it's not accurate. Like, and, and honestly, these people just, they just want to be there to just make money and be known, you know? Right. And it's like, so, so what I've done before, because I mean, I could tell my daughter all day

[00:18:53] and she's like, okay, thanks. Thanks. But, you know, or when it comes to like modesty and this girl does not struggle. I mean, like, she's pretty, she's very confident. Shout out to our girls. She's a confident girl. I'm like, and so then she'll be like, what's wrong with that? Mom, I'm shopping for swimsuits. What about this swimsuit? And I'm like, uh, no. And she's, you know, and of course I'm mom. Yeah. So what I did was I kind of more adopted like JP two mentality on this one, you know, and theology of the body.

[00:19:23] He talks about song of songs and talks about, you know, the, my sister, my bride. So how, how the men should be looking at that woman as like, have that love of like a sister, you know, where you don't want anything to taint her. You don't want to taint her. You don't want to use her. Like, yeah. So I'm sitting there with her brothers and we're like sitting at the table and she hands me my phone with this Amazon swimsuit.

[00:19:52] And I was like, boys, you want your sister wearing this? And they were like, nope. Uh, you're not wearing that. And I was like, I mean, not even, I didn't even show it to her dad. Like just the boy, the brothers. They were like, nope. And she was like, uh, uh, okay. And went away and got something else. She's like, how about this? I was like much better. Oh, that's good. I was like, boys, what about this? They're like, that's much better. No, you know, I mean, it wasn't full on modesty, like neck up to here, you know, or anything like that.

[00:20:19] But it still was like, and she will listen to her brothers. She will listen to them. That's crazy. And that is, and that, and I will also instill that in the, in the boys too. Like if you're dating a girl, you're thinking about how you want to do something or look at her in a certain way. Hey, do you want another boy doing that to your sister? And they're like, no, no. Oh, you know, so it's, yeah. Yeah. That's been my, that's, yeah, it's good.

[00:20:49] That's good. That's the way to go. That's been my MO. Well, I think it's really, yeah, it's really important. I mean, I think for, for, for all of us, right. I think sometimes people can, no matter our condition, no matter like a condition, like our vocation, no matter whatever situation we find ourselves in, there's always maybe a tendency to, to set a completely unrealistic standard for things.

[00:21:15] And the, one of the problems for a lot of people, like I'm just going to choose this at random, but look, the, the Catholic social doctrine would teach that there's nothing wrong with profit. Profit's a good thing. There's nothing wrong with money. We all need money. The church needs, I got to pay the light bills. Okay. We all need money. Um, but the, the, the challenge comes is when people spend so long, um, trying, striving,

[00:21:44] striving, striving for more, more, more, they don't know how to turn it off. They don't get, the people don't get to a point like, you know what? I'm good now. I'm good. Check. Let's look. I'm good. Right. They, they, and then the, the challenge there comes that they get to a point much later in life where they're like, gosh, I wasted so much time. Yeah. Why didn't I just stop and enjoy the moment of, so because it's, they don't know how to

[00:22:14] turn it off. Yeah. And when, when people kind of unabashedly pursue any form of perfectionism, again, very different from striving for excellence or detail. Those are good things. They, they miss life. Yeah. They miss them. The beautiful moments of life. Yeah. And, uh, and this can absolutely happen to clergy too. So we are, I put myself at the front of the line.

[00:22:42] And so, um, but I think, uh, as we're discussing, I mean, there's a, there's an awareness to stop and say, Lord, thank you for the gift of this situation and all its mess. Yeah. Okay. We're, we're all a hot mess in our way, but you love us and thank you and, and, and help me to, to be humble enough to work on these things too. So little by little. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:07] And that's, I mean, and then my boys too, they even, they even are like natural beauty is better. Like they talk about that, you know, about, and I think, I think a lot of people like, forget that, you know, we've been so hyper-focused on, no, we've got to have this, got to look this way, got to have these things, got to have that. And all of that, that we forget just the natural or ordinary life.

[00:23:35] And even just sometimes our, just our basic looks like just are really beautiful. I mean, think about nuns and sisters, like the Dominican sisters in Nashville. You're like, you look at those women and you're like, they are beautiful, talented. And they wear no makeup. I mean, you know, I mean, there's like, but it's, it's that, that joy. They wear the same outfit every day. Yeah. Totally fine. Totally fine. You know, like there's just that, that inner beauty that's, that comes out that is just,

[00:24:04] you know, I think, and we forget that, you know, just the ordinary is, is very, very beautiful. And to your point, I mean, when we strive or when, not strive, but when we are seeking perfection over and over and I want to, you know, get there. Um, you don't enjoy the moment. Like you said, you're not really enjoying life. I can speak for myself doing what I do, which is music. You show up, you're so nervous. Oh my God, I need to get this right.

[00:24:34] I can't mess up. I can't do anything. I practice, I practice, I practice, I practice. You show up, you go, and then your voice cracks. And it's like the whole entire song could be beautiful. But then that first thing, you don't enjoy it. Yeah. You don't enjoy it. And it, it came to a point where I was like, this is not for my glory. This is for God. No one's looking at me. They're looking at him. Stop worrying about perfection. Yeah.

[00:25:03] And just do what he has you here to do. And it, you can mess up words. You can miss a beat. You can miss whatever. But if you are doing it beautifully and you're feeling it, I mean, I can tell you, people can feel that. Oh yeah. Yeah. You are sitting there worried about each word and you are doing this, seeking perfection. And people notice that too. Yeah. So stop for just a second. Enjoy life. Whatever it is that you're doing, it's not going to be perfect. It never will be perfect. Yeah.

[00:25:33] So just think about that. It's not going to be perfect. If you begin with, let me just enjoy this moment. I have prepared because yes, we have to prepare. I've prepared enough. It's not going to be perfect. Now let's enjoy. Yeah. And have peace with it and have peace with it. And then again, I think like for most of us being able to turn it off and just say, no, this is good. This is good. Yeah. I mean, it's, that happens all the time with food.

[00:26:00] People want to add like too much to things. I'm like two ingredients, three pasta. It's enough. It's a fish and thing, not a mess. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's good. Good stuff. Hey, listen, don't forget to put soul in your food and give food to your soul. God bless you. Yeah. Did y'all hear about the, the CEO of Elf? Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to go ahead and see you guys.